Friday, October 17, 2008

JOE VS O.

So, as we all now know, "Joe the Plumber" is a registered Republican who doesn't have a plumber's license. And the business he works for, and said he hoped to buy, has a yearly income that will get a tax break under an Obama presidency, not a tax hike.

But as we also know, these facts mean nothing to rightwingers.

Obama will "raise your taxes" is still their mantra, and McCain less than twenty-four hours ago—and after "Joe the plumber" was exposed as a fraud—is still claiming in his speeches everything he was claiming in the debate that has since been exposed as lies.

This is what so many of us have been pointing out (and been frustrated by the media often ignoring or trying to "balance" by giving the lying side and the factual side as if both were equal)—that rightwing Republicans have perfected "the big lie" of the Nazis and Soviet Communists so well that an inordinate amount of people in this country (see some of the comments on past posts on this blog for perfect examples) believe them, no matter the evidence.

I told a friend the instant I saw the photo of "Joe the Plumber" and Obama—even before the video turned up on youtube or that encounter became an emblem of the debate and the commentary that followed—I could see "Joe" was trying to control an obvious distaste, if not outright hatred, for Obama.

And when I learned "Joe" said that Obama "tap danced all around the answer" and added that Obama outdid Sammy Davis Jr. Well, that's all she wrote. I don't listen to Rush or his ilk, but that sounds exactly like the kind of thing they say in their coded racist way.

The right despises Obama's consistently thoughtful and reasoned answers to questions and proposals for solutions to our problems. They have been thriving on their own "big lies" for so long now, they have no aptitude for reason and thoughtfulness, only sarcasm and simplified rightward spin.

17 comments:

JIm said...

Mike,

“they(the Rright) have no aptitude for reason and thoughtfulness, only sarcasm and simplified rightward spin.”

Mike it is joy to follow your logic. When a Sarah comes on to political field, the Democrats fabricate scandals of an affair, accusation that the infant Trig was in fact the child of Sarah’s daughter. They even attack Sarah for having the audacity of hope for having given birth to a Downs Syndrome baby. Under Obama’s thinking it would be alright to kill, abort, abandon in the Alaskan snows the baby that had the audacity to be defective by high minded Liberal Democrat standards.

Joe the Plumber, has a philosophic difference with Obama and the modern Democrats. He thinks that he is more capable of making decisions about his money than government. Obama believes that it is better for government to spread Joe’s money around for projects the government decides are more worthy than Joe. Joe favors capitalism. Obama favors socialism/Marxism (Truth Squads).

The reasoned and thoughtful way Democrats engage is to attack Joe personally. They question his licensing, his motives rather than respond to argument of the merits of Capitalism vs. Socialism. Modern Democrats are many things, but reasoned and thoughtful do not come to mind.

Anonymous said...

Jim,

You just did it. You answered sarcastically ("joy to follow your logic") with rightward spin (Obama wants to leave newborn babies in the Alaskan snow???? Are you kidding me? You beleive that he really feels that way?).

But most importantly-you don't acknowledge that the premise of Joe buying a business that would have to pay extra taxes is a LIE!!!! Your candidate was BOLDFACE lying through the entire debate. What the F*&%K?????

Get real.

JIm said...

Anonymous,

Sarcasim is the very least, that fabrication of scandals and personal attacks on honest people by Democrats, warrants.

Obama opposed the "Infant Born Alive Act", that was based on an incident where an infant was left in a utility room to die after surviving an abortion. So, Anonymous, if the thought that Obama would allow a born alive aborted infant to be abandon in the Alaskan snows offends you, maybe you would be comforted if the death occurred in a utility room.



ELECTION 2008
Nurse: Obama lied about infanticide in debate
Activist who instigated bill says Democrat 'obfuscated radical record'

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: October 16, 2008
10:47 am Eastern

© 2008 WorldNetDaily


Sen. Barack Obama lied in last night's debate about his opposition to an Illinois bill aimed at protecting an infant who survives an abortion, charges the nurse who instigated the legislation.

Jill Stanek, a WND columnist, launched her work as a pro-life activist after witnessing the death of an infant who survived an abortion but was left untreated.

In a column today, she asserts that last night, in the third and final debate with GOP rival Sen. John McCain, Obama "obfuscated his radical record of abandoning abortion survivors to die in hospital soiled utility rooms."

Anonymous said...

To continue what I started above:

Jim, the disagreement over tax policy is totally legitimate. Framing the argument by using a liar's story (even though his opinion is worth hearing) is not. That wouldn't fly in a High School class, heck it wouldn't fly in a Middle School class, but you can overlook it in a Presidential candidate? I don't understand that.

Another thing that is troubling about basing a discussion on a lie, is that it creates an argument (like we're having here) about the lie, and so, it doesn't allow the conversation to move to the specifics of the fiscal impact of either tax program. So let's do that now. According to what I heard Obama himself say to Joe, only the amount above 250k will be taxed higher and that fraction of income will only be taxed 3% higher. Unfortunately we can't calculate the actual taxes for Joe's new business aquisition because he lied about it's income. So, let's take a hypothetical business that makes 350k, the additional 100k would be taxed only $300 dollars more (39% of 100k instead of 36%) does this sound like a deathblow to a $350,000 business? Not to me. Furthermore, Obama is making the point, not that he thinks he can spend your money more wisely than you can, but that those who make the least NEED THE MOST HELP. Can you refute that, in your own language based on your own math, without resorting to throwing out the latest b.s. "talking point"?

Anonymous said...

Did you watch the debate? He responded to that LIE about the infant born alive act. THERE WAS ALREADY A LAW ON THE BOOKS THAT PROTECTED THOSE INFANTS. Yes I'm yelling at you. Communicating with you is like talking to someone who plugs his ears while you're speaking and then just blurts out the next planned attack line.

The sanctity of LIFE surely encompasses infants but it doesn't end there, like your party seems to think.

Should I plug my ears now and go compose my next attack on your candidate, totally ignoring the substance of your response? Maybe I should, if only to see what you like so much about that style.

John M. Lally said...

Don't waste your time, anon. If you keep him going, he'll start talking about Woodrow Wilson!

Anonymous said...

john,

That's funny. Thanks I needed that.

Tom said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom said...

I watched the Youtube of Joe the Faux Plumber. I was amazed at how articulate and patient Obama was with him. He spent over 5 minutes on that video carefully explaining the tax plan. Have we ever seen Bush do this or even McCain with anyone? It reminded me of the second debate also, when McCain left in a hurry and Obama stayed and shook hands and talked to everyone in the room. I respect him tremendously for this. He seems to care about actual individual people. Even with Joe he said at the end he might not have his vote but he respected him and would work hard on his behalf.

JIm said...

Obama Blocked Born Alive Infant Protection Act

by Jill Stanek, guest reporter

He often stood alone as an Illinois lawmaker in opposition to protections for babies who survived abortion.


Note: This report first appeared in the April issue of Citizen magazine.

On Jan. 10, 2005, newly elected U.S. Sen. Barack Obama visited former colleagues and staffers at the Illinois state Capitol, where he had served seven years as state senator. I happened to be at the Capitol that day, too, and a friend and I took the opportunity to speak to Obama, who had not yet achieved rock-star status and was still approachable.

We were in Springfield to lobby for passage of the state Born Alive Infant Protection Act, legislation that would require hospitals to care for infants who survive an abortion. Obama spoke against the legislation in 2001 and 2002 and single-handedly defeated it in committee in 2003.

My friend stood in Obama’s path and said, “Senator, we are going to pass Born Alive here in Illinois this year.”

Obama smiled smoothly and agreed, “I think you will,” adding, “I would have voted for the Born Alive Infant Protection Act in Illinois had it been worded the same as the federal bill. I think that’s the position the Democrats should take.”

There’s just one thing he forgot to mention: Obama had stopped his committee from adding the federal wording.

With Obama no longer in the state Senate, the Born Alive legislation passed in 2005.

JIm said...

Obama says that 95% of tax payers will receive a reduction in income taxes. In order to reach that number he includes people who do not pay income taxes, who will receive a rebate which should be properly characterized as welfare. Does that make Barak a LIAR? I think not. A stretcher of the truth or one that likes to play with words might be more appropiate.

Joe the plumber fully acknowledges that he would likely receive some additional moneys from Obama's plan, but still preferes Capitalism over Socialism. He is an optimistic American who intends to improve his financial position. Does that make Joe a LIAR? I think not.


US Politics
4 hrs ago

"Joe the Plumber" Admits: Would Receive Obama's Tax Cuts
"Joe the Plumber," who became a national icon based on McCain's attempts to use his as a foil against Obama's Tax Plan, has admitted he would indeed benefit from Obama's tax cuts.

JIm said...

jm lally,

Woodrow Wilson was closer to aggressive thugish fascism than socialism. So far, Obama has not advocated violence just intimidation and voter fraud through ACORN.

Anonymous said...

Please, leave Jim (The Troll) alone, and certainly don't respond. I suspect this is the most attention the poor devil has gotten in his life. Why else would he antagonize folks on a blog like this? He needs to "head South." His right wing Republican smirk comes through his limp arguments. Ignore him & perhaps he will crawl back under his bridge.

Another Lally said...

Demonizing a citizen for asking a question by investigating his personal and business background is more the act of a totalitarian or Fascist mentality.

In plain English, this is suppressing not only dissent, but any disagreement with the dictates of the regime.

Obama agreed to disagree.

Clear thinking US citizens who are legally registered to vote will decide which side will prevail for the next four years.

Personal attack has been the MO of Obama's campaign machine.

Anonymous said...

Call me crazy, but I was watching SNL Weekend Update on hulu.com, (the one after the 2nd debate in the town hall), and I swear I saw Joe the Plumber in the audience, wearing a green shirt, sitting next to a guy in a pinkish shirt, a few seconds into the clip. I tried to email Keith Olbermann to research this but my computer wouldn't allow me to send the email.
Anyone else see the guy?

JIm said...

Religion, Mitt Romney and Barak Obama

Why was Mitt's Mormanism of such concern and ridicule amongst many Christians, athiests,liberals and visitors to this site, but Obama's Muslim roots are out of bounds??


ELECTION 2008
Mideast leader: Obama a Muslim who studied in Islamic schools
Says Arab world campaign contributions 'may enable him to win U.S. presidency'

-----------------
Posted: October 17, 2008
9:00 pm Eastern


By Aaron Klein
© 2008 WorldNetDaily


JERUSALEM – Sen. Barack Obama is a Muslim of Kenyan origins who studied in Islamic schools and whose campaign may have been financed by people in the Islamic and African worlds, Libyan leader Muammar Gadhafi said during a recent televised national rally.

"There are elections in America now. Along came a black citizen of Kenyan African origins, a Muslim, who had studied in an Islamic school in Indonesia. His name is Obama," said Gadhafi in little-noticed remarks he made at a rally marking the anniversary of the 1986 U.S. air raid on his country.

The remarks, translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute, MEMRI, were aired on Al Jazeera in June.

Anonymous said...

Dear ML:

Great post. The moral corruption of the right can't be emphasized enough---the fact that so many of these benighted people have been fed a steady diet of lies (Obama is an Arab or a Muslim or refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance or won't wear a flag pin etc.), disseminated through through viral email campaigns etc., ultimately hurts them more than it does progressives: because so many of these people will vote against their own best interests, economic and otherwise. More and more moderates and genuine conservatives are supporting Obama. They recognize that many Bush-McCain positions (as in preemptive wars, warrantless wiretapping, signing statements, blurring the separation of church and state, torture of detainees) are undermining the Constitution, and at their core are deeply un-American.
---TPW